Hark: Lee! How are you & who are you?

Lee: I am a film-maker, trying to make a name for himself. And on the side I sometimes sell a bit of wine here and there. I’ll be 28 in two months. I’m getting old.  Older. That’s good!

H: Where did you grow up?

L: London. South London.

H: Which part?

L: So I was having to stay at my Gran’s because my mum was always working. So I would say I grow up in Balham/Wandsworth. The original South London yeah.

H: Why would you say original South London?

L: Oh! Good question. Because there’s a weird perception these days, I don’t know what’s happened but basically people think… to a certain extent it is South London but there’s other places people in London consider South. Er which weren’t considered South before.  Balham and Tooting, and Streatham, those are South London. And then as you start to venture up Peckham wasn’t considered South London Those were South East sort of ways from what I remember.  So sometimes I like to  say original South London. But there’s nothing wrong with Peckham and stuff I still love it.

H: You say this is like home?

L: Yeah I’d definitely say that. Definitely.

H: And what sort of memories can you relate to home.

L: Errrr that’s a good question. I’m not really sure. Oh being with my Gran.  She would always take me to and from school. Being with family in general cos I don’t have any brother or sisters. So uncles, aunties always around.  All my friends would be around from like Balham, Tooting, Mitcham sort of area as well I’d say. Funnily enough my grans just moved to Mitcham.

H:  Which is quite close to me.

L: Close as hell to you. See now your South London. You’re what some would like to say as S A R F (sarrrrf), but in a good way.

H: I’m at the border.

L: Yeah.  Exactly.

H: So you see how you saw where you grew up back in the day as home,  how do you see that now, as your older?

L: It’s different now. Before I think anyway there was more of a community. A community base for those sort of areas I mentioned. Now things seems a bit more separated. Theresa lot… a closed down those shops that I would have associated my memories with.  Just random stuff like where my aunt bought her pram for cousins, for her first kid. That was a really nice shop were we knew the owners and they had it there for years. I don’t think that’s there anymore. There were loads of shops were we actually knew the owners. They’re not there anymore.  They been replaced with like well known established shops or… Just by shops that weren’t really around before. A lot of cafes and stuff like that. Abandoned churches. Like a big Sainsburys. No Woolworths is there any more. The McDonalds even looks different. I know how I sound but it’s true.  Even McDonalds looks like a cafe if you think about it. It got swivelling chairs.

H: And you’d never have your birthday party in there.

L: Nah not today. You can have a pretty formal birthday party in McDonalds from the look of things.  Not like before.

H: Because where I live, on my street, most of the houses are rented.  A family wouldn’t move in.

L: That’s another good point.

H: I don’t know who lives on my street.

L: Yeah exactly.  I mean it’s weird actually, I live in a flat. So I do know my neighbours and stuff. Before when I was with my nan, there were more families and stuff around. But now, where my Nan lives now, there are some families in Mitcham. But then again thats got probably something to do with me thinking the original South London. Because there are still community bases still there.  In that part of Mitcham. But I think for other parts you’re probably right.  Theresa lot of students, younger people in these areas that have moved in. Theres not that really that many families any more.

H: Will that bring about change or push everyone out? Is it good or bad? How do you feel about that change? And where you will be maybe?

L: That’s a good question. Hoping to be in Boston, America working for my Uncle. But if I were to stay here a bit longer I’d probably end up in an area like that.  I don’t know if it’s good or bad. I mean I kinda think it’s good. It’s both. It’s got pros and cons. It’s kinda good because you get a different mixture of people. But then again you might be moving a certain aspect of identity from the area. It’s more apparent in certain areas anyway like… So Mitcham will still be pretty similar or Croydon and stuff. They’re changing but they haven’t gone the full 100%. Other areas have gone further.

H: Changing to what? Compare to what?

L: The dreaded term gentrification. So basically they have erm… So a lot people who are from outside of London have moved in. They haven’t lived here when things were different or worse. Some cases worse because of the crime level. And then you’ve got a lot of young people pretty good earning jobs. Then the rents gone higher in certain areas where it was frowned upon before. Then they move in and different shops start to open up. Other older shops close down. I think what is weird is the identity. Like I’ve lived here for years. It’s kind of like you know, a funny thing, but a trendy thing to move into these, what’s considered rough areas, and then live there. And then get there adrenaline from it. That’s kind of how they might see it, you know. They get there sort of kick out of it. Saying there not used to living like that, let’s see what it’s like. Then it gives them something to struggle about. But they probably don’t.

H: So it’s like the real struggle against the fake struggle? In the same place.

L: Yeah in the same the place, in a very weird way. There’s a lot of class issues in London man that’s got to do with perception. If you see someone dressed in a certain way in certain area, you’ll probably perceive them in a certain way, to someone else who dresses differently. But it’s not to say that, in a way it can create more jobs. But then again I do think there comes some identity loss there, because I mean if that’s not even true, then why is it that they weren’t moving to the Brixton(s), and the Peckham(s) in the 90s then?

H: I heard this term social cleansing

L: That sounds painful

H: Instead of making things equal or affordable. Instead of your cafe being your cafe, you’ll end up at a place with a organic sausage or something like that. And it’s gonna be £7 instead of that £4.50.  That difference if you’re minimum wage is not really affordable in the long term. You get pushed out in the end. I know don’t know.

L: Yeah I think there’s some sort truth to that there.

H: I think what you said about identity, some can’t relate to that. It’s not a big deal.

L: Yeah exactly if you’re not used to it. Yeah I think that the real problem. I don’t think there so much a problem with the actual people moving to the area and stuff. You can’t really judge people by that anyway. Some of them might actually be able to just about afford it, and they actually genuinely want to live there because they enjoy the area. They enjoy the vibe of it. Whatever! But there is that perception of; they’ve been there all these years, why is there all of a sudden this dramatic change and what is it actually trying to lead to. What are you trying to say about the people that have been living there for years? Why would you not want them to be there for? I don’t know it’s a weird one. Even now if you say to people you’re going to Peckham or Brixton, they still have the original perception of what those areas are like. Why would you go there? I can’t go there! Whatever! You’re like it’s actually changed a lot now. I was going to those areas like Brixton before, so you know it’s like the outside looking in. As opposed to the inside looking out. It’s weird.  I kinda don’t know what it’s gonna look like… ah no I kinda have an idea.

H: Maybe the change is bought on by money? And that has that knock effect?

L: Definitely!

H: Making more money? I don’t know! Maybe the money is end sum of all this change and not the benefits for the people living there! I think you agree, we don’t mind change, as long you give people a fair chance.

L: Yeah as long as there’s equal chance. I don’t mind as long as it’s a good one. Not change for the sake of having it or change to promote a certain type of class or a certain type of person somewhere. Where they were not interested in before…you see the thing is people have to, people have to remember about how it’s perceived by someone that’s always been there. Before people could afford to live in these places, however these places are now becoming less affordable and some of these people seem to have a hint of smugness about it. You don’t really know if they genuinely want to be there, or if it’s cool. I guess money is the main objective at the end of the day.

H: I don’t know maybe you agree London is a place with everything and everyone. A lot of it is mixed, but all of this has come through more organic and natural processes.

L: I agree you do get everything, but I do think to a certain extent, if you get someone from…Sweden!?!..and another person from Egypt or wherever they can still have the same interest in things. They might have the same social group of people they hang out with, they might like the same music, same films and same things in general. It depends on how you define how different things are. You’re still not really gonna get a different perspective on things, because of what I was saying earlier, they are gonna end up hanging out with the same friends and same places. So from that I don’t actually know where the difference is.

H: London is mixed but it’s not always integrated right?

L: Yeah exactly!

H: I don’t always see people integrating. If there was integration, say in Brixton? Then people wouldn’t be pushed out.

L: Exactly. Then gentrification itself would be a bit more acceptable. I mean you wouldn’t even get gentrification if people integrated more would we?

H: Do you think that’s the perception of the out-sider?

L: Yeah I would say so, thinking about it that’s the perception. I think it sounds a bit fake to say, oh there’s so many different people from so many different backgrounds and everyone’s getting along. But you go to certain places it’s not always like….unfortunately there isn’t much integration……it does sound pessimistic, but I do think it’s the truth. It’s what I see. It’s not like I only go to those areas either, it’s not like I only know people that only live in these places. But you can still go to places where people that have similar interests do mix regardless of background and culture. Again it’s good and bad. Pros and cons.

H: Would you say that because you are part of that culture. Because you’re here. I’m gonna assume that you went to school with a really mixed selection of people. You wouldn’t think twice about someone else’s background, because you’re also part of that.

L: What’s also funny is I’ve had different experiences of going to a public and private school. I’ve had more experience of seeing things differently. Like for example when I do say to people that I went to a private school they automatically think I’ve got a rich family. Or certain aspects of being posh or something like that, but those are connotations of private schools and it doesn’t really mean anything. I’ve actually been to both and there wasn’t that much difference apart from the facilities and again, funnily enough, the different types of people that go to that school. There wasn’t much difference between the people I went to public and private school with. There were richer kids that went to the private but to an extent they didn’t see that as a big thing. They didn’t necessarily look down on us as if we were from an underprivileged or less well-off background. It’s strange to think that, the place were you think there would be more judgement, there was actually less. So that’s what’s so weird about it.

H: So the point is that you’re just used to it. You are from here and your perception is different.

L: Yeah I would say so. Different from an outsiders you’d say. Someone who might not have been here or living here since the 90s….. things were different

H: Or who just grew up here from a younger age.

L: I don’t even know how to describe it. I mean look how someone might react to, say a stabbing or something like that. Before you would’ve heard his name, you would’ve seen his picture in the news. It might have been a big thing and you would have to talk about it at school, and your family would talk to you about it. Now the new skool of our generation have just got used to it. Kinda bad in a way. I don’t know it feels quite mixed. Less of an impact I guess. But if you’re actually here living through it and experiencing things differently, and see thing changing it has…… I guess you see things change.

H: What do you think are the cultural things you got from growing up here…. that made you who you are, and the things you liked?

L: Erm probably going to different types of schools, different types of friends, family. Family because my parents were born here but my grandparents weren’t. You get a different cultural background on things from generational perspective. Music! I think even social things like….. I went to two different private schools. The one I went to when I was nine years old, I think that was the last school to do the cane. I’m pretty sure they’re were. But again that has to have a weird impact on you as well. But you tell people that now and they won’t even be aware that schools had that sort of power. They just think that you’re lying. How can your school have the cane, that was like back in the Victorian days. That’s just how certain schools were. It was very different back then. Now you have different rules and regulations. It would be impossible. The school I went to after that, that was an all-boys school. Maybe not the year I went, but I know the year before I went they changed it. Yeah those were the sort of things that changed me.

H: What are the things that you love about your city?

L: Hey everything now. I’m joking.

H: Cos the things you love, shape you. If anything?

L: There’s always different places you can go to.

H: You have a good choice.

L: Yeah there is a good choice. It’s interesting to meet different types of people, even if those different types of people have similar interests. It doesn’t matter because they might have a different take on it.

H: Maybe if I phrase it like, say you have the choice…… I don’t necessarily feel like the choice is taken full advantage of. Say you have the choice, to go somewhere different, but you don’t. Therefore you can’t complain when eventually you’ll have less choice.

L: Yes that’s very true. I do think there’s some negatives and positives. One of the negatives of me, kinda like, going through it and being here through the year or whatever, is that I’ve taken things for granted. Things I didn’t know I was conscious of. Erm it’s something like museums you can go to. That’s something I remember doing a lot more before. But then again I’d do the same. There so much choice, you start to think how many choices I have here.

H: That just reminded me……the other day I thought about this. If I move to the countryside, ever!

L: Which my aunt is about to do funnily enough.

H: Where would I get my haircut? Where am I gonna get a shape up. Would I have to travel 15miles? It’s just something small like that.

L: Exactly. That’s interesting because my aunt has just recently got married. She going to move to Somerset, basically I’m gonna go up there in the next two weeks as an early Christmas thing. I haven’t been but most of my family have, including my mum. My aunt said to my mum, it’s weird because I’ve lived in London most of my life but I feel more at home in Somerset. That’s the sort of person she is. I was thinking what the hell am I gonna do up there. I better take all the city stuff, in order to make it feel more like home I guess. I don’t know I think it might actually have something to do with your personality and you as an individual.  If you limit your options, or you don’t remember them, or just forget about them. Like my aunt recently settling up there like that’s her home now and, like she hasn’t been in London her whole life.

H: So, that change has been for the better? She’s given it a go right?

L: Yeah she’s given it a go, exactly. In that respect change is definitely a positive. She definitely feels happier. Just because we both live in London, straight away we thought, ah man how we gonna get a haircut. But already we aren’t trying to embrace change. Maybe if went with the flow it would be easier.

H: I think maybe what we were saying about change earlier and the outsider, maybe it works the other way round as well. For us to leave?

L: Yeah! Thinking about it like that, yeah. Definitely. I really think it’s the way you perceive things. Your perception of things. So someone could look at it and go….er….. I’m gonna go to the countryside, where am I gonna get my haircut? They might see that as a negative, but someone else might like that fact they’ve got to look for somewhere to get their hair cut. I actually don’t know where I’m gonna get my hair? They might like walking for three hours.

H: I guess you could trade that in for, fresh air and peaceful surroundings.

L: Yeah exactly I guess we could all do with some of that. Maybe if London had more accessible places for peace and quiet that would be a really good balance. Or somewhere that’s different. Actually different. So you can go to a different set of bars. Maybe you can go somewhere there aren’t any bars and chill out. I don’t know it’s weird. Maybe you can only chill in the gym these days. Just relax and listen to your music and shit. I guess the gym is now like countryside with weights.

H: That’s a good way of putting it. I guess there are a lot of stresses here that people forget about, because they don’t have the time to think about them. There’s genuinely no time to think.

L: It seems more and more to me that London…….

H: I think what you’ve said about your aunt, she’s had more time to think about what she really wants.

L: Oh definitely man.

H: Cos your always thinking about the next thing when you’re here right?

L: Exactly, and it’s weird because I’ve literally seen the change in her. I wouldn’t even say strange because it’s such a positive thing. You know she’s gone through some stuff, not like crazy sort of stuff. Stuff like situations we’d all have to probably go through or whatever. Just the fact that she’s looking at life differently, from a different perspective, I can easily see the change, and I think that’s all come from her being able to take some time out and think about thinks. I think what matters, people forget that they can or should have made time do that. They won’t even have time to remember to make time.  That’s what’s so weird. They won’t even thing like, oh I actually maybe if I do this on Tuesday then that would help me to do things in the long run. There literally like I’m not gonna have any time to that.

H: In my opinion I’ve had a concept. Don’t know if you’d agree with it, but I think things are better when they’re going slower. It might sound strange but what’s the rush? Because everyone wants things now!

L: Everyone does, but I do think that has something to do with age and the internet.

H: I agree.

L: Now you hear and see about people doing stuff at a much younger age. Again this is coming from someone who was like 14 at the end of the 90s, or something like that. There’s definitely younger people doing more stuff now. Obviously what happens is, that changes the whole age bracket for things. So before you would have heard, or known about someone who was earning a certain amount of money at a young age. Now there’s so many young people, like I can do it because so and so has. To a certain extent they do have more ambitions or seem more ambitious.

H: Is that because people are told money is time? Time is money sorry.

L: Yeah!

H: I don’t agree with that but I don’t know what you think?

L: To a certain extent, maybe they do. I’m not even to sure.

H: I place more value on time.

L: I’m trying to. It’d hard. I say it’s hard but again I already sound defeated. Maybe if more types of people had some sort of patience. But at the same time you know, you can’t really blame them. If you’re 19 or 18 you’re gonna want stuff now because everything is coming so much quicker. I mean I can’t exactly blame them for it. I probably would have been different if I was 18 or 19 today, to the 18 or 19 I was in early 2000. So at the same time you can’t even look at them and be like, why do they want everything now, so much quicker.

H: There learning process is different

L: Exactly. I was with a friend at work and they had their daughter there. I can’t remember now how old there daughter is now. She must have been around 2. She knew how to use a touch screen phone. Taking pictures on her phone. But then she would, at first I was surprised and then again I was like why am I even surprised. That’s all she’s gonna know. My gran had a….what’s those phones that go around?

H: The dial phones?

L: Yeah I had that. I’m old! But then again it was different vibes.

H: I guess that’d be on antiques show now.

L: Yeah maybe!

H: Or in a house, in Balham on an ivory table right?

L: Sounds like a nice house. It probably would be. It probably go for quite a bit as well.

H: If it was affordable I reckon I’d move into a house like that. Actually, maybe I should just wake up now.

L: I think I would.

H: Moving away has always seemed appealing.

L: Where to?

H: Anywhere! Maybe I’d have a better quality of life.

L: You seem to be quite on quality of life and time. Patience and waiting for things, which is good though.

H: I think you have to do things now. Like now!

L: Like instinct.

H: Now is the right time.

L: Yeah!

H: But certain things are not necessarily bad to wait for. You’re a wine man, so matured wine…..

L: Yeah wine, meat and cheeses. Again I’m juggling all this stuff in life, and you can wait too long sometimes. I understand when the whole now factor comes in sometimes to be totally honest. I would even say, I’ve definitely taken too long to do certain things. That’s the other thing you don’t want to fall into.  It’s just so easy to, especially if you’re not in a bad position. What is a bad position? A position where you’re not able to do what we want? Or is it a position, we didn’t plan out to do? I guess the best position would be you’re ideal one. It’s actually what you planned out to do.

H: To find a balance.

L: Yeah exactly.

H: And you’re finding that balance now?

L: Yeah more so now.

H: You wanna have that wine today, but you also want to have that matured wine later on. You want both.

L: That’s right. I might just want a Robinsons. An orange Robinsons.

H: I like strawberry Ribena.

L: You like strawberry. Strawberry Ribena’s cool. Or isn’t it Ribena Strawberry?

H: That’s what I like, you can pop into a shop anywhere and I like the selection of drinks.

L: That’s because those are the drinks that you know. There’s other drinks out there that you don’t know.

H: Drinks like KA!

L: I don’t know about KA!

H: Mirinda? I’d definitely have a Mirinda over an orange Fanta.

L: I know someone who is obsessed with Mirinda. They bought me one ages ago.

H: You can only get that in certain shops and areas.

L: Again that has to go back to what we were talking about early with the gentrification. I don’t think you’re gonna find Mirinda in Notting Hill. You might do.

H: I agree with the gentrification thing, but I also think why not have a Mirinda? It taste good.

L: It’s choice right?

H: I think those choices are influenced by our actions. We’ve chosen to support coke and they’ll give us coke.

L: So why not choose Mirinda? That’s a good one. I feel like Mirinda right now.

H: It’s just sometimes the little things.

L: It’s the small things. Yeah you’re right. I mean that’s another positive though. You really can find different places. I usually go out with my friend Chris and he knows everything different, restaurants and food places. But it’s so good though. I mean, that would be like a full time job doing that around London. All these different areas and places you can go just to eat. That’s just eating, that’s a luxury.

H: I guess we should start to wind down. So what can we conclude from our conversation?

L: We can conclude that you don’t have all the answers man. That was my Kanye impression.

H: Isn’t that the guy from that TV show?

L: Yeah Larry David. Erm I don’t know what to conclude. We can conclude that…well the original question was, do I like the change of London? Is that the question?

H: Possibly. Or how you’ve changed with it and how it relates to you.

L: I don’t think I’ve changed with it that much. But then again I’m not totally for or against it. I’m just gonna try and see where it goes.  I hope it goes to a good place. I think it will.

H: And I guess you’ve realised you need to act on certain things.

L: Yeah exactly. Definitely. I better not wait too long, to see how much it will change.

H: Maybe you moving out of London has changed?

L: It’s kinda been on the card for a bit now. But it seems closer. But I wouldn’t necessarily say it was due to the changes of London, but it might have something to do with the whole waiting too long thing. But that’s not even a bad thing to wait for. I’d rather wait for that than….

H: I think everyone’s experiences are unique. Your experience is especially unique. Were you learnt things, your open to new things and you understand the difficulties in life. And you understand both the rich and poor sides, and the cultural differences.

L: I’m definitely opened minded. I’m not gonna close my mind for anything. It doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t know why you would either.

H: It’s not a static thing?

L: Nah it’s not. Even if I’ve made my decision about something I would still open to be corrected or hear an alternative. Unless it’s certain things like, I wanna get a Mirinda and get you an orange Fanta. That I’d put my foot down on. I wouldn’t be so open-minded to that Fanta.

H: Just to finish off from where we started. Who are you now?

L: Who am I now? I am a man that is in some desperate need of some Mirinda.

H: Thank you!